|
Post by Neshead on Mar 16, 2021 16:40:18 GMT
Am i missing the point here but where is the behaviour of Adam Johnson or Tyrell Robinson found acceptable. I bet there isn't a single police officer in this country that isn't appalled at what happened to Sarah Everard but some of the crap levelled at them because a ploice officer did is laughable. I've even read where the blame of rapists lies with the innocent who choose to stay silent. Silence is violence. And it isn't found acceptable, by any sane or reasonable person. There's a reason why sex offenders often have to be isolated from other criminals in prison and why they're seen as pariah's when they rejoin society. Just read some of the fucking replies in this whopper of a twitter thread. Are some women born fucking stupid? Every copper i know joined up to help people no matter who they are, even me in brief spell in the job. Just because one fucking nutcase is a copper doesn't mean the others don't want to protect. Thats not to say most of them aren't useless because to be fair a large percentage of them are but there seems to be an agenda here to kick the police from every angle going.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 17:03:02 GMT
Post by bantam147 on Mar 16, 2021 17:03:02 GMT
Unfortunately, hyperbole and a lack of critical thinking abound. This poor woman wasn’t ‘murdered by the police’, she was allegedly murdered by a maniac who happens to be a police officer. I agree; there’s clearly a lot of emotion at play, but very little in the way of actual, credible, reasonable action being proposed. Having plain clothes police officers on duty in bars and clubs is a good idea for the general safety of everyone whilst they’re in or leaving a bar. But in what way will they stop rape and sexual assault for example? It’s not going to stop 2 people leaving consensually together, which is generally the way most ‘date rape’ type incidents begin.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 17:08:46 GMT
Post by bantam147 on Mar 16, 2021 17:08:46 GMT
Silence is violence. And it isn't found acceptable, by any sane or reasonable person. There's a reason why sex offenders often have to be isolated from other criminals in prison and why they're seen as pariah's when they rejoin society. I'm not sure the women protesting know how to change this other than just ask the police to 'do more'. How exactly? How can we change the laws that are there to protect women? There sin't a simple solution to this, unless you are prepared to change the way whole countries and religions see the role of women in their respective societies. You’re right. There are deeply complex reasons why some of our social structures have evolved as they have and religion plays a big part, historically. However, people conflate equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. You can’t really have both. In Scandinavia, where legislation and society is generally seen to be the most equitable from a gender perspective, the differences between the sexes has amplified rather than narrowed, with both men and women taking on professions and lifestyle choices that align more to traditional gender stereotypes. The issues around women’s safety and role in society are far more complex than the narrative that’s being played out. And not to make this a case of whataboutery, but young men suffer as victims of violent crime in greater numbers than women. The extent to which society is fucked is pretty significant and I see nothing in the way we’re going about trying to make life better and fairer for all, that leads to me think things will go anywhere but backwards.
|
|
|
Post by Neshead on Mar 16, 2021 17:15:20 GMT
Unfortunately, hyperbole and a lack of critical thinking abound. This poor woman wasn’t ‘murdered by the police’, she was allegedly murdered by a maniac who happens to be a police officer. I agree; there’s clearly a lot of emotion at play, but very little in the way of actual, credible, reasonable action being proposed. Having plain clothes police officers on duty in bars and clubs is a good idea for the general safety of everyone whilst they’re in or leaving a bar. But in what way will they stop rape and sexual assault for example? It’s not going to stop 2 people leaving consensually together, which is generally the way most ‘date rape’ type incidents begin. We are the most CCTV'd country in the world but apparently putting more up will deter rapists. Yeah cos most rapes happen in public places or down dark alleys don't they? Quite why the rent a mob are hell bent on attacking the police goodness only knows, how they've become the centre of attention over domestic abuse and the abuse of women in general is up for debate. Not sure these people realise that the police only uphold the law, they don't write it. And its the CPS that decide wether or not a prosecution will take place on the evidence available. I think theres a debate to be had on what role our police force play in a modern society, this protest (not a vigil) at Clapham Common has highlighted the need for discussion as to what they are really here for.
|
|
|
Post by Neshead on Mar 16, 2021 17:19:26 GMT
I'm not sure the women protesting know how to change this other than just ask the police to 'do more'. How exactly? How can we change the laws that are there to protect women? There sin't a simple solution to this, unless you are prepared to change the way whole countries and religions see the role of women in their respective societies. You’re right. There are deeply complex reasons why some of our social structures have evolved as they have and religion plays a big part, historically. However, people conflate equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. You can’t really have both. In Scandinavia, where legislation and society is generally seen to be the most equitable from a gender perspective, the differences between the sexes has amplified rather than narrowed, with both men and women taking on professions and lifestyle choices that align more to traditional gender stereotypes. The issues around women’s safety and role in society are far more complex than the narrative that’s being played out. And not to make this a case of whataboutery, but young men suffer as victims of violent crime in greater numbers than women. The extent to which society is fucked is pretty significant and I see nothing in the way we’re going about trying to make life better and fairer for all, that leads to me think things will go anywhere but backwards. I'm not sure i like the way society is heading, without control you have anarchy, the only control we have are the police and they are being hung out to dry at the top level by corrupt politicians. And if we're having to choose sides which seems the way these days i'm backing the police all the way even though i don't agree with everything they do. Because if you defund the police just watch how the weak vocal left minority will suffer when the shit hits the fan.
|
|
|
Post by bantam147 on Mar 16, 2021 17:23:28 GMT
You’re right. There are deeply complex reasons why some of our social structures have evolved as they have and religion plays a big part, historically. However, people conflate equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. You can’t really have both. In Scandinavia, where legislation and society is generally seen to be the most equitable from a gender perspective, the differences between the sexes has amplified rather than narrowed, with both men and women taking on professions and lifestyle choices that align more to traditional gender stereotypes. The issues around women’s safety and role in society are far more complex than the narrative that’s being played out. And not to make this a case of whataboutery, but young men suffer as victims of violent crime in greater numbers than women. The extent to which society is fucked is pretty significant and I see nothing in the way we’re going about trying to make life better and fairer for all, that leads to me think things will go anywhere but backwards. I'm not sure i like the way society is heading, without control you have anarchy, the only control we have are the police and they are being hung out to dry at the top level by corrupt politicians. And if we're having to choose sides which seems the way these days i'm backing the police all the way even though i don't agree with everything they do. Because if you defund the police just watch how the weak vocal left minority will suffer when the shit hits the fan. Totally agree. This is a lengthy post, but I thinks its spot on: /
|
|
|
Post by Neshead on Mar 16, 2021 17:41:34 GMT
I'm not sure i like the way society is heading, without control you have anarchy, the only control we have are the police and they are being hung out to dry at the top level by corrupt politicians. And if we're having to choose sides which seems the way these days i'm backing the police all the way even though i don't agree with everything they do. Because if you defund the police just watch how the weak vocal left minority will suffer when the shit hits the fan. Totally agree. This is a lengthy post, but I thinks its spot on: / Its a good read and portrays accurately how i feel about the current situation. Although i think the comments column would have look very different on the completely toxic twitter platform. I'll give you an example of my experience in a different life. We got called to a domestic and when we get there its a teenager who claims her stepdad has hit her. Now don't get me wrong he was wrong to lash out, he even admitted that himself. But it turns out after a couple of interviews he had tried everything to make the relationship between them work, she was just a horrible piece of work who had physically and mentally abused him during his realtionship with the girls mother. He seemed a genuine bloke, he'd done a long stint in the army and had never been convicted of anything before, his days in the army almost making him accept that it was wrong to say anything about the abuse he was recieving. Funny thing was, after we'd handcuffed him and arrested him and we're taking him to the van, his step daughter stopped us all at the door and asked her step dad if he'd give her £20 for some cigarettes. Yeah, thats after she'd asked for him arresting on assault charges. Its a fucking weird world we live in.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 17:46:10 GMT
Post by bantam147 on Mar 16, 2021 17:46:10 GMT
Totally agree. This is a lengthy post, but I thinks its spot on: / Its a good read and portrays accurately how i feel about the current situation. Although i think the comments column would have look very different on the completely toxic twitter platform. I'll give you an example of my experience in a different life. We got called to a domestic and when we get there its a teenager who claims her stepdad has hit her. Now don't get me wrong he was wrong to lash out, he even admitted that himself. But it turns out after a couple of interviews he had tried everything to make the relationship between them work, she was just a horrible piece of work who had physically and mentally abused him during his realtionship with the girls mother. He seemed a genuine bloke, he'd done a long stint in the army and had never been convicted of anything before, his days in the army almost making him accept that it was wrong to say anything about the abuse he was recieving. Funny thing was, after we'd handcuffed him and arrested him and we're taking him to the van, his step daughter stopped us all at the door and asked her step dad if he'd give her £20 for some cigarettes. Yeah, thats after she'd asked for him arresting on assault charges. Its a fucking weird world we live in. There are just as many vile women out there as there are men. Its fairly well established in clinical psychology that men are more likely to 'demonstrate their aggression' through physical means, whilst women are more likely to do so through non-physical means. I know a handful of coppers. My old man served in the police his whole life. All good people, all joined up to do good, all of whom are (or were by the end) utterly, utterly dismayed by the job. My eldest daughter wants to join the Police - I'm trying my damnedest to talk her out of it, because I think its a completely thankless task.
|
|
|
Post by Neshead on Mar 16, 2021 18:06:57 GMT
Its a good read and portrays accurately how i feel about the current situation. Although i think the comments column would have look very different on the completely toxic twitter platform. I'll give you an example of my experience in a different life. We got called to a domestic and when we get there its a teenager who claims her stepdad has hit her. Now don't get me wrong he was wrong to lash out, he even admitted that himself. But it turns out after a couple of interviews he had tried everything to make the relationship between them work, she was just a horrible piece of work who had physically and mentally abused him during his realtionship with the girls mother. He seemed a genuine bloke, he'd done a long stint in the army and had never been convicted of anything before, his days in the army almost making him accept that it was wrong to say anything about the abuse he was recieving. Funny thing was, after we'd handcuffed him and arrested him and we're taking him to the van, his step daughter stopped us all at the door and asked her step dad if he'd give her £20 for some cigarettes. Yeah, thats after she'd asked for him arresting on assault charges. Its a fucking weird world we live in. There are just as many vile women out there as there are men. Its fairly well established in clinical psychology that men are more likely to 'demonstrate their aggression' through physical means, whilst women are more likely to do so through non-physical means. I know a handful of coppers. My old man served in the police his whole life. All good people, all joined up to do good, all of whom are (or were by the end) utterly, utterly dismayed by the job. My eldest daughter wants to join the Police - I'm trying my damnedest to talk her out of it, because I think its a completely thankless task. I wouldn't envy anyone going into that job now, though the candidates they seem to be aiming for aren't the same as the ones applying a generation ago. It literally is a thankless job, the scumbags they deal with have everyone on their side, from solicitors to probation officers and psychologists. Nothing is anyone's fault anymore, the victims only support is a well meaning police officer and a worthless victim support group.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 18:16:35 GMT
Post by Hobhead on Mar 16, 2021 18:16:35 GMT
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 18:26:39 GMT
via mobile
Post by bantam147 on Mar 16, 2021 18:26:39 GMT
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 18:29:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by tetchyarse on Mar 16, 2021 18:29:33 GMT
It’s not going to stop 2 people leaving consensually together, which is generally the way most ‘date rape’ type incidents begin. It will, however, stop a lot of the drink-spiking and similarly shitty behaviour that precedes "leaving together consensually". My opinion of the police is complicated. There are plenty of bobbies on the beat I'd trust with my life, my grandad was one, my uncle is one in the Met. Most people go into the police for the right reasons. But the organisation generally? I wouldn't trust them to tell me the time. Too many cover-ups, too many lies, too much fitting up of innocent people, too much lying about people who can't defend themselves. The boss of the Met is the one who is responsible for killing de Menezes in a bungled terrorist operation and, instead of the sack, she got a bloody promotion. They made the guy who lied about Hillsborough the Chief Constable of Merseyside ffs. The trouble is that the good coppers never come out against the bad coppers. I get why they have the "us and them" mentality, but look at the chief of the Police Federation slagging off the women at the vigil for "causing it" with not even a token bit of sorrow at Sarah Everard's murder. Occasionally admitting an error doesn't make you look weak but blindly insisting you're always perfect makes you look untrustworthy.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 18:46:47 GMT
via mobile
Post by tetchyarse on Mar 16, 2021 18:46:47 GMT
Prosecuting rape will always be hard, unless there is violence- he said she consented, she said she didn't, or says she was so drunk she can't remember anything, who do you believe? Ched Evans proved that much- the first jury believed the victim and he spent hundreds of thousands of pounds throwing the kitchen sink at it until he eventually got the decision overturned. The reasons for it stunk in my opinion, sexual history shouldn't be brought up in rape cases, but we are where we are. He was "exonerated", and even if you think he didn't rape her, nobody seems to care about just how much of a cunt he was to leave her there passed out in a hotel room. And I'd agree that being a cunt shouldn't be illegal, but the attitude now seems to be that if it's not illegal it's absolutely fine. But the law is only a small part of what is acceptable and what is not. Look at Max Clifford, when he was pressuring 16 year old girls to have sex with him in exchange for promises of stardom he wasn't doing anything illegal, but everyone just laughed about it and didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with it. You see the same with Trump and Clinton in the US. It was only when he did it to 14 year olds that people seemed to give a shit. Adam Johnson's victim was 14/15, if she'd been a year older nobody would have given a toss either, footballers eh. No easy answers, absolutely, especially as we know there are plenty of young women who'd love to shag a footballer- and good luck to them. But a good starting point would be to make Johnson or Robinson's sort of predatory behaviour socially unacceptable regardless of the age of the girl. To go back to rape cases, they're hard to prosecute without violence. But I'm sorry, men *do* know when a woman is consenting and when she isn't. They just know that it's unlikely that a lack of consent can be proven. I'm not talking about the negotiations, for want of a better word, we all have in marriages. If a wife says she's really really not in the mood and a husband goes and does it anyway, there's no way you'd ever get to prosecute that but it's clearly not acceptable. Am i missing the point here but where is the behaviour of Adam Johnson or Tyrell Robinson found acceptable. I bet there isn't a single police officer in this country that isn't appalled at what happened to Sarah Everard but some of the crap levelled at them because a ploice officer did is laughable. I've even read where the blame of rapists lies with the innocent who choose to stay silent. The police can't have any blame for her murder. And in all the usual whingeing everyone seems to forget that it was the police who caught him, and who caught him very quickly. They deserve praise for their investigation, not criticism because the murderer happened to be a copper. Nobody thought Robinson or Johnson's behaviour was acceptable, because their victims were kids. My point is that if their victims had been 17 instead of 15 then nobody would have given a shit, they'd have just been another wannabe WAG. Look at the grief Ched Evans' victim got, she had to change her name and leave the country even though she should be anonymous. Now I wonder how her identity got out?
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 18:51:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by bantam147 on Mar 16, 2021 18:51:56 GMT
It’s not going to stop 2 people leaving consensually together, which is generally the way most ‘date rape’ type incidents begin. It will, however, stop a lot of the drink-spiking and similarly shitty behaviour that precedes "leaving together consensually". I'm not sure it would. I don't know how many reported sexual assaults include an allegation of drink spiking in the first place to be honest. But as a copper, you'd have to be very, very eagle eyed to spot it happening. I'd have to assume that whatever a copper can see, is as easily visible on the CCTV that exists in pretty much every bar going.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 18:58:39 GMT
Post by Neshead on Mar 16, 2021 18:58:39 GMT
Am i missing the point here but where is the behaviour of Adam Johnson or Tyrell Robinson found acceptable. I bet there isn't a single police officer in this country that isn't appalled at what happened to Sarah Everard but some of the crap levelled at them because a ploice officer did is laughable. I've even read where the blame of rapists lies with the innocent who choose to stay silent. The police can't have any blame for her murder. And in all the usual whingeing everyone seems to forget that it was the police who caught him, and who caught him very quickly. They deserve praise for their investigation, not criticism because the murderer happened to be a copper. Nobody thought Robinson or Johnson's behaviour was acceptable, because their victims were kids. My point is that if their victims had been 17 instead of 15 then nobody would have given a shit, they'd have just been another wannabe WAG. Look at the grief Ched Evans' victim got, she had to change her name and leave the country even though she should be anonymous. Now I wonder how her identity got out? We've done Ched Evans to death. And its one of those cases that highlights the problems that rape cases throw up when looking for a conviction. Regardless of what people think of him as an individual, if we are going to incarcerate people on the evidence that someone MAY have comitted a offence then we are going down a very dangerous path. Evans may not lend himself to the holders of the self righteous moral high ground but no one should be convicted when there is no concrete evidence, thats not how the law works.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 18:59:40 GMT
via mobile
Post by tetchyarse on Mar 16, 2021 18:59:40 GMT
It will, however, stop a lot of the drink-spiking and similarly shitty behaviour that precedes "leaving together consensually". I'm not sure it would. I don't know how many reported sexual assaults include an allegation of drink spiking in the first place to be honest. But as a copper, you'd have to be very, very eagle eyed to spot it happening. I'd have to assume that whatever a copper can see, is as easily visible on the CCTV that exists in pretty much every bar going. CCTV is great for prosecuting people after the event, but it prevents bugger all. We all know this, even in the small number of places who always have someone watching the live CCTV feed. To see the drink-spiking you'd need to be sharp, but not the after-effects. Paralytic girl being carried home by surprisingly sober bloke always sets by spidey-sense tingling
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 19:06:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by tetchyarse on Mar 16, 2021 19:06:45 GMT
The police can't have any blame for her murder. And in all the usual whingeing everyone seems to forget that it was the police who caught him, and who caught him very quickly. They deserve praise for their investigation, not criticism because the murderer happened to be a copper. Nobody thought Robinson or Johnson's behaviour was acceptable, because their victims were kids. My point is that if their victims had been 17 instead of 15 then nobody would have given a shit, they'd have just been another wannabe WAG. Look at the grief Ched Evans' victim got, she had to change her name and leave the country even though she should be anonymous. Now I wonder how her identity got out? We've done Ched Evans to death. And its one of those cases that highlights the problems that rape cases throw up when looking for a conviction. Regardless of what people think of him as an individual, if we are going to incarcerate people on the evidence that someone MAY have comitted a offence then we are going down a very dangerous path. Evans may not lend himself to the holders of the self righteous moral high ground but no one should be convicted when there is no concrete evidence, thats not how the law works. I'm talking about the reactions shown towards his victim. His supporters didn't argue it was all a drunken misunderstanding, they argued she was a money-grabbing slut who deliberately set out to destroy him and made her move home and change her name. That's more what I'm talking about, rather than re-hashing an argument about whether he did it or whether what he did was rape. That's the attitude that needs changing. And yes, I agree prosecuting rape is very hard because, unless there's violence, it's one word against another.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 19:23:33 GMT
Post by Neshead on Mar 16, 2021 19:23:33 GMT
Its a good read and portrays accurately how i feel about the current situation. Although i think the comments column would have look very different on the completely toxic twitter platform. I'll give you an example of my experience in a different life. We got called to a domestic and when we get there its a teenager who claims her stepdad has hit her. Now don't get me wrong he was wrong to lash out, he even admitted that himself. But it turns out after a couple of interviews he had tried everything to make the relationship between them work, she was just a horrible piece of work who had physically and mentally abused him during his realtionship with the girls mother. He seemed a genuine bloke, he'd done a long stint in the army and had never been convicted of anything before, his days in the army almost making him accept that it was wrong to say anything about the abuse he was recieving. Funny thing was, after we'd handcuffed him and arrested him and we're taking him to the van, his step daughter stopped us all at the door and asked her step dad if he'd give her £20 for some cigarettes. Yeah, thats after she'd asked for him arresting on assault charges. Its a fucking weird world we live in. There are just as many vile women out there as there are men. Its fairly well established in clinical psychology that men are more likely to 'demonstrate their aggression' through physical means, whilst women are more likely to do so through non-physical means. I know a handful of coppers. My old man served in the police his whole life. All good people, all joined up to do good, all of whom are (or were by the end) utterly, utterly dismayed by the job. My eldest daughter wants to join the Police - I'm trying my damnedest to talk her out of it, because I think its a completely thankless task. mattjohnsonauthor.com/2021/03/16/im-done/Have a read of this mate, it sums up the life of a current day police officer to a tee. And why more and more are bailing out. The good are still the vast majority of this world, unfortunately let down by the powers that be.
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 19:26:04 GMT
Post by Neshead on Mar 16, 2021 19:26:04 GMT
We've done Ched Evans to death. And its one of those cases that highlights the problems that rape cases throw up when looking for a conviction. Regardless of what people think of him as an individual, if we are going to incarcerate people on the evidence that someone MAY have comitted a offence then we are going down a very dangerous path. Evans may not lend himself to the holders of the self righteous moral high ground but no one should be convicted when there is no concrete evidence, thats not how the law works. I'm talking about the reactions shown towards his victim. His supporters didn't argue it was all a drunken misunderstanding, they argued she was a money-grabbing slut who deliberately set out to destroy him and made her move home and change her name. That's more what I'm talking about, rather than re-hashing an argument about whether he did it or whether what he did was rape. That's the attitude that needs changing. And yes, I agree prosecuting rape is very hard because, unless there's violence, it's one word against another. You're cherry picking to suit your agenda. Forget the moral high ground bit, at what time of the alleged offence was the woman involved a 'victim' and what was she a victim of?
|
|
|
Corona
Mar 16, 2021 19:30:44 GMT
Post by bantam147 on Mar 16, 2021 19:30:44 GMT
We've done Ched Evans to death. And its one of those cases that highlights the problems that rape cases throw up when looking for a conviction. Regardless of what people think of him as an individual, if we are going to incarcerate people on the evidence that someone MAY have comitted a offence then we are going down a very dangerous path. Evans may not lend himself to the holders of the self righteous moral high ground but no one should be convicted when there is no concrete evidence, thats not how the law works. I'm talking about the reactions shown towards his victim. His supporters didn't argue it was all a drunken misunderstanding, they argued she was a money-grabbing slut who deliberately set out to destroy him and made her move home and change her name. That's more what I'm talking about, rather than re-hashing an argument about whether he did it or whether what he did was rape. That's the attitude that needs changing. And yes, I agree prosecuting rape is very hard because, unless there's violence, it's one word against another. That’s a fairly significant generalisation. I personally had sympathy for his conviction and I know many others who also did - none of us, to my knowledge inferred anything about what you’ve suggest in respect of the woman in question. You’re always going to get a contingent of morons with highly publicised news stories. Happens all the time, men and women. On the rape prosecution point, even the presence of violence often isn’t enough, because of the fact that some people like ‘rough sex’. It’s a minefield.
|
|