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Post by Hobhead on Apr 18, 2021 8:09:34 GMT
Given another window and (hopefully) better options from the bench then we might see better use of subs and tactics.
Conversely, if we do recruit better, they do have better options and they still persist with tactical conservatism and like-for-like changes regardless of the game situation then that would be telling.
They have to have one more window and the start of next season though.
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Post by Lethal Jizzle on Apr 18, 2021 9:50:10 GMT
Given another window and (hopefully) better options from the bench then we might see better use of subs and tactics. Conversely, if we do recruit better, they do have better options and they still persist with tactical conservatism and like-for-like changes regardless of the game situation then that would be telling. They have to have one more window and the start of next season though. I can absolutely see this side and it's hard to argue with them not deserving but I'm yet to see some true coaching out of them. They play the correct formation but they're seems to be very little in the way of instructions for how the players need to play it. I really really don't want to waste another 2 or 3 months of next season because of more sentimental shit.
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Post by Neshead on Apr 18, 2021 9:54:33 GMT
Given another window and (hopefully) better options from the bench then we might see better use of subs and tactics. Conversely, if we do recruit better, they do have better options and they still persist with tactical conservatism and like-for-like changes regardless of the game situation then that would be telling. They have to have one more window and the start of next season though. I can absolutely see this side and it's hard to argue with them not deserving but I'm yet to see some true coaching out of them. They play the correct formation but they're seems to be very little in the way of instructions for how the players need to play it. I really really don't want to waste another 2 or 3 months of next season because of more sentimental shit. They're not far off averaging 2 points a game. You can't just put that down to sheer luck. Conversely we criticised McCall for sending players out with no instruction, this cannot be levelled at Trueman and Sellars because if it were true we'd be going down.
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T&S out
Apr 18, 2021 9:57:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by Lethal Jizzle on Apr 18, 2021 9:57:14 GMT
I can absolutely see this side and it's hard to argue with them not deserving but I'm yet to see some true coaching out of them. They play the correct formation but they're seems to be very little in the way of instructions for how the players need to play it. I really really don't want to waste another 2 or 3 months of next season because of more sentimental shit. They're not far off averaging 2 points a game. You can't just put that down to sheer luck. Conversely we criticised McCall for sending players out with no instruction, this cannot be levelled at Trueman and Sellars because if it were true we'd be going down. That's true but it's starting to look more and more we could put that down to being a 1 man team
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Post by Hobhead on Apr 18, 2021 10:26:02 GMT
Given another window and (hopefully) better options from the bench then we might see better use of subs and tactics. Conversely, if we do recruit better, they do have better options and they still persist with tactical conservatism and like-for-like changes regardless of the game situation then that would be telling. They have to have one more window and the start of next season though. I can absolutely see this side and it's hard to argue with them not deserving but I'm yet to see some true coaching out of them. They play the correct formation but they're seems to be very little in the way of instructions for how the players need to play it. I really really don't want to waste another 2 or 3 months of next season because of more sentimental shit. It’s not sentimental, their record means they deserve a shot. We’ve had one window under Sparks, T&S and Turnbull and, if nothing else, it’s shows a complete sea change in terms of strategy. We’re casting our net wider, we’re going for more youth and we’re identifying targets that wouldn’t even have occurred to us under Junior’s pathetic efforts. We know they’re chewing through data and analytics and it’s pretty much everything we’ve been asking for. All that isn’t undone by initial signs of being overly tactically conservative. Their tactics and substitutions are a worry, I’ve said so myself a few times, but they’ve shown enough both in terms of actual results and potential to deserve more of a shot at it. If we go into next season, they fail and we do end up wasting the first couple of months of next season then it won’t be because we’ve stuck our thumb in the air and taken a punt. It’ll be because we took a calculated risk and failed. If our work from now on is more calculated I’ll be happy. It beats swapping managers every season and filling gaps with McCall and it had a much higher chance of long term success.
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T&S out
Apr 18, 2021 10:34:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by fish on Apr 18, 2021 10:34:54 GMT
I can absolutely see this side and it's hard to argue with them not deserving but I'm yet to see some true coaching out of them. They play the correct formation but they're seems to be very little in the way of instructions for how the players need to play it. I really really don't want to waste another 2 or 3 months of next season because of more sentimental shit. They're not far off averaging 2 points a game. You can't just put that down to sheer luck. Conversely we criticised McCall for sending players out with no instruction, this cannot be levelled at Trueman and Sellars because if it were true we'd be going down. bowyer had us top 7 for half a season yet we all saw that the performances made that unsustainable. When T&S took over we were on the right end of tight games, scoring worldies and having certain decisions go our way. Not to mention the opposition missing a shit tonne of chances. We've relied on a superb conversion rate which I think I saw was third in the league, despite creating very little. Dont think anyone had a problem with it as we needed all of that luck to pull away from the drop. Problem is, bowyer relied on OGs, pens and red cards to get results last season. We all called it that the results would tank when the luck ran out and it did. The luck has now ran out for T&S and we're getting results that we deserve. So yes they've averaged 2 points a game but history tells us based on this level of performance it won't last long.
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Post by tetchyarse on Apr 18, 2021 10:36:42 GMT
They're not far off averaging 2 points a game. You can't just put that down to sheer luck. Conversely we criticised McCall for sending players out with no instruction, this cannot be levelled at Trueman and Sellars because if it were true we'd be going down. That's true but it's starting to look more and more we could put that down to being a 1 man team I think that's harsh. Going forward, yes, Cooke is very important and his replacements are either past it (Clarke and Donaldo) or lazy (Evans). But we knew that already, we knew Evans was an absolutely bollocks signing when McCall announced him, so it's no surprise that he's shit.
At the back, though, they've sorted the problems out with pretty much the same players. Canavan in for BRE was a good piece of business, but that's not the only reason why the two O'Connors have started looking like solid, competent defenders again.
We've had a lot of narrow wins but, as I've said before, under McCall and Bowyer the narrow wins were usually jammy but under T&S they've not been. And we've not been ripped to shreds by anyone, not even Bolton, though we were lucky not to lose that one. Under McCall, with pretty much the same players, we were getting bummed at home by Lincoln, Oldham and Newport fucking County. Even with the bad performances like at Scunny or Carlisle we had chances to draw those games.
When they took over we were 23rd and looking like Conference fodder. And now we're in a position where we'll be pissed off if we miss out on the playoffs. They've earned their chance. Let's see if they take it.
For me, 45 points from 25 games, and a GD of +8, is more than just luck.
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T&S out
Apr 18, 2021 10:40:15 GMT
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Post by Dick on Apr 18, 2021 10:40:15 GMT
They'll end up being victims of their own success. A simple back to basics approach steadied the ship, then actually ended up propelling us much further than we could have anticipated.
At the same time we saw - as often is - the league pan out to be crap and thought we could have a right go at this. But the back to basics approach isn't enough to break into that top 7. Other sides have better approaches and better quality on the day, while we probably lack enough brilliance to win individual games that you'd probably define as 'must win'.
They're going to have to be more attack minded next season. Bowyer sequence caution and sitting on single goal leads is very risky and won't go down well with the fans.
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T&S out
Apr 18, 2021 11:29:42 GMT
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fish likes this
Post by Lethal Jizzle on Apr 18, 2021 11:29:42 GMT
That's true but it's starting to look more and more we could put that down to being a 1 man team I think that's harsh. Going forward, yes, Cooke is very important and his replacements are either past it (Clarke and Donaldo) or lazy (Evans). But we knew that already, we knew Evans was an absolutely bollocks signing when McCall announced him, so it's no surprise that he's shit.
At the back, though, they've sorted the problems out with pretty much the same players. Canavan in for BRE was a good piece of business, but that's not the only reason why the two O'Connors have started looking like solid, competent defenders again.
We've had a lot of narrow wins but, as I've said before, under McCall and Bowyer the narrow wins were usually jammy but under T&S they've not been. And we've not been ripped to shreds by anyone, not even Bolton, though we were lucky not to lose that one. Under McCall, with pretty much the same players, we were getting bummed at home by Lincoln, Oldham and Newport fucking County. Even with the bad performances like at Scunny or Carlisle we had chances to draw those games.
When they took over we were 23rd and looking like Conference fodder. And now we're in a position where we'll be pissed off if we miss out on the playoffs. They've earned their chance. Let's see if they take it.
For me, 45 points from 25 games, and a GD of +8, is more than just luck.
Sorted the problems out at the back? Canavan out yesterday showed how shite we were at the back yesterday, the Oc's cannot play together. Please tell me which players have improved under them in terms of their own ability. There's just Cooke and that's largely because he is playing in his favourite position instead of being defensively used and essentially ruined by previous managers. Everyone will see this as attacking T&S and its not, I'd been crying out for 4231 for ages. That formation and the return of Cooke to his natural position was a massive reason why we went on the run we did. Look at that same formation without him, we signed 9 players and 4 of them don't get any minutes. A complete waste of time and money, there's only Canavan that has made any difference since January. Every other player has regressed they haven't shown any signs of looking good enough for next season. People can bang on about the start but what about Bolton? What about Tranmere? Both had shit starts and are firmly rooted up there now. With the late start to the season there was always time to turn it around and we've had the play offs within our grasp, it was there for the taking and we've bottled it and a lot of that is down to T&S recent bowyerball approach.
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Post by Hoochy on Apr 18, 2021 11:36:03 GMT
Bolton and Tranmere weren't having a '23rd in the league' bad start.
Think you're a bit harsh and overly critical. They've still got a load of McCall and Bowyer's players here until summer at least. Give them another window or 2 and a fair crack at it. I'm with Hob here. We've been crying out for a direction and we've got one.
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T&S out
Apr 18, 2021 11:42:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by Lethal Jizzle on Apr 18, 2021 11:42:52 GMT
Bolton and Tranmere weren't having a '23rd in the league' bad start. Think you're a bit harsh and overly critical. They've still got a load of McCall and Bowyer's players here until summer at least. Give them another window or 2 and a fair crack at it. I'm with Hob here. We've been crying out for a direction and we've got one. Maybe I am yeah but it's because we've been down this road so many times. Its ok saying we've got direction but are we employing the right people in the right places to give us that direction? I've yet to be convinced that a Rahic/Rhodes offspring and a bloke who helped scunthorpe get where they are are necessarily the right people to help 2 young inexperienced league managers. I pray I'm wrong but I reckon this time next season we will be in the same position amongst all these former village teams
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Post by Neshead on Apr 18, 2021 12:03:03 GMT
I think that's harsh. Going forward, yes, Cooke is very important and his replacements are either past it (Clarke and Donaldo) or lazy (Evans). But we knew that already, we knew Evans was an absolutely bollocks signing when McCall announced him, so it's no surprise that he's shit.
At the back, though, they've sorted the problems out with pretty much the same players. Canavan in for BRE was a good piece of business, but that's not the only reason why the two O'Connors have started looking like solid, competent defenders again.
We've had a lot of narrow wins but, as I've said before, under McCall and Bowyer the narrow wins were usually jammy but under T&S they've not been. And we've not been ripped to shreds by anyone, not even Bolton, though we were lucky not to lose that one. Under McCall, with pretty much the same players, we were getting bummed at home by Lincoln, Oldham and Newport fucking County. Even with the bad performances like at Scunny or Carlisle we had chances to draw those games.
When they took over we were 23rd and looking like Conference fodder. And now we're in a position where we'll be pissed off if we miss out on the playoffs. They've earned their chance. Let's see if they take it.
For me, 45 points from 25 games, and a GD of +8, is more than just luck.
Sorted the problems out at the back? Canavan out yesterday showed how shite we were at the back yesterday, the Oc's cannot play together. Please tell me which players have improved under them in terms of their own ability. There's just Cooke and that's largely because he is playing in his favourite position instead of being defensively used and essentially ruined by previous managers. Everyone will see this as attacking T&S and its not, I'd been crying out for 4231 for ages. That formation and the return of Cooke to his natural position was a massive reason why we went on the run we did. Look at that same formation without him, we signed 9 players and 4 of them don't get any minutes. A complete waste of time and money, there's only Canavan that has made any difference since January. Every other player has regressed they haven't shown any signs of looking good enough for next season. People can bang on about the start but what about Bolton? What about Tranmere? Both had shit starts and are firmly rooted up there now. With the late start to the season there was always time to turn it around and we've had the play offs within our grasp, it was there for the taking and we've bottled it and a lot of that is down to T&S recent bowyerball approach. Your looking for perfection in a team that looked like it was going down before Christmas. It's gonna take way longer to turn this club around than that.
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T&S out
Apr 18, 2021 12:05:45 GMT
via mobile
Post by Lethal Jizzle on Apr 18, 2021 12:05:45 GMT
Sorted the problems out at the back? Canavan out yesterday showed how shite we were at the back yesterday, the Oc's cannot play together. Please tell me which players have improved under them in terms of their own ability. There's just Cooke and that's largely because he is playing in his favourite position instead of being defensively used and essentially ruined by previous managers. Everyone will see this as attacking T&S and its not, I'd been crying out for 4231 for ages. That formation and the return of Cooke to his natural position was a massive reason why we went on the run we did. Look at that same formation without him, we signed 9 players and 4 of them don't get any minutes. A complete waste of time and money, there's only Canavan that has made any difference since January. Every other player has regressed they haven't shown any signs of looking good enough for next season. People can bang on about the start but what about Bolton? What about Tranmere? Both had shit starts and are firmly rooted up there now. With the late start to the season there was always time to turn it around and we've had the play offs within our grasp, it was there for the taking and we've bottled it and a lot of that is down to T&S recent bowyerball approach. Your looking for perfection in a team that looked like it was going down before Christmas. It's gonna take way longer to turn this club around than that. Yeah I know that but I'm yet to be convinced we have the people pulling the strings who can do what we've been asking for
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Post by Neshead on Apr 18, 2021 12:20:27 GMT
Your looking for perfection in a team that looked like it was going down before Christmas. It's gonna take way longer to turn this club around than that. Yeah I know that but I'm yet to be convinced we have the people pulling the strings who can do what we've been asking for Parky didn't convince for ages. Very few managers do.
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Post by tetchyarse on Apr 18, 2021 17:50:05 GMT
I think that's harsh. Going forward, yes, Cooke is very important and his replacements are either past it (Clarke and Donaldo) or lazy (Evans). But we knew that already, we knew Evans was an absolutely bollocks signing when McCall announced him, so it's no surprise that he's shit.
At the back, though, they've sorted the problems out with pretty much the same players. Canavan in for BRE was a good piece of business, but that's not the only reason why the two O'Connors have started looking like solid, competent defenders again.
We've had a lot of narrow wins but, as I've said before, under McCall and Bowyer the narrow wins were usually jammy but under T&S they've not been. And we've not been ripped to shreds by anyone, not even Bolton, though we were lucky not to lose that one. Under McCall, with pretty much the same players, we were getting bummed at home by Lincoln, Oldham and Newport fucking County. Even with the bad performances like at Scunny or Carlisle we had chances to draw those games.
When they took over we were 23rd and looking like Conference fodder. And now we're in a position where we'll be pissed off if we miss out on the playoffs. They've earned their chance. Let's see if they take it.
For me, 45 points from 25 games, and a GD of +8, is more than just luck.
Sorted the problems out at the back? Canavan out yesterday showed how shite we were at the back yesterday, the Oc's cannot play together. Please tell me which players have improved under them in terms of their own ability. There's just Cooke and that's largely because he is playing in his favourite position instead of being defensively used and essentially ruined by previous managers. Everyone will see this as attacking T&S and its not, I'd been crying out for 4231 for ages. That formation and the return of Cooke to his natural position was a massive reason why we went on the run we did. Look at that same formation without him, we signed 9 players and 4 of them don't get any minutes. A complete waste of time and money, there's only Canavan that has made any difference since January. Every other player has regressed they haven't shown any signs of looking good enough for next season. People can bang on about the start but what about Bolton? What about Tranmere? Both had shit starts and are firmly rooted up there now. With the late start to the season there was always time to turn it around and we've had the play offs within our grasp, it was there for the taking and we've bottled it and a lot of that is down to T&S recent bowyerball approach. When McCall was shoved out we were 9 points behind Bolton and 11 behind Tranmere. We're now 12 behind Bolton and 8 behind Tranmere. So we've pretty much matched their runs, just starting further back. Bolton lost to Grimsby this weekend too.
I'm not gomping, and it's going to be a big summer for them, but I think they've done enough to earn their chance. Let's see if they can kick on and take the chance.
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Post by rahicscissorbudget on Apr 18, 2021 21:12:21 GMT
Your looking for perfection in a team that looked like it was going down before Christmas. It's gonna take way longer to turn this club around than that. Yeah I know that but I'm yet to be convinced we have the people pulling the strings who can do what we've been asking for Even if they aren’t the right people pulling the strings, at least the need for string pullers has been notified. Honestly turnbull is probably more important than t&s for now.
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Post by keithcollins on Apr 19, 2021 16:30:34 GMT
Done a good job keeping us up but thats as far as they can go. If we want autos next year they need to be replaced with a manager who wants to play front foot football rather than the bowyer level of dross we've seen for months. We don't want another mid season change so sparks needs to but the bullet and make the change in the summer. "Replaced with a manager who wants to play on the front foot" So who? I see former favourite Hurst is doing a great job at Grimsby And when we go on a bad run next season, we have this same conversation again? We can't go on changing managers every 12 months, it's becoming a fucking joke.
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T&S out
Apr 19, 2021 18:44:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by fish on Apr 19, 2021 18:44:50 GMT
Done a good job keeping us up but thats as far as they can go. If we want autos next year they need to be replaced with a manager who wants to play front foot football rather than the bowyer level of dross we've seen for months. We don't want another mid season change so sparks needs to but the bullet and make the change in the summer. "Replaced with a manager who wants to play on the front foot" So who? I see former favourite Hurst is doing a great job at Grimsby And when we go on a bad run next season, we have this same conversation again? We can't go on changing managers every 12 months, it's becoming a fucking joke. wellens. Granted he got the boot from Salford but them hiring bowyer as his replacement negates any credibility they have in that department.
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Post by hobbes on Apr 20, 2021 11:12:06 GMT
In for me. You just can't argue with their points per game record. That alone should give them the summer and start of next season. If Turnbull and Sparks can improve the squad in the summer as much as they did in January we've a chance of a good season.
I want us to win the league again too Jizzle, but I just don't think another change now is whats needed. The managers have had their introduction to league football now. Based on what I've read about them they'll hopefully reflect on how it went and try to improve us and themselves. They're used to a role where they are solely concerned with development, and have now got the responsibility to provide results first and development second. I think its understandable if they've had to concentrate on results and neglect development, that in fact could explain their tentative approach to games a lot of the time, especially when key personnel have been out.
Give them a strong squad with cover in the key positions, get rid of the deadwood (again), and then we can judge them.
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T&S out
Apr 20, 2021 19:48:14 GMT
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Post by Lethal Jizzle on Apr 20, 2021 19:48:14 GMT
What's their ppg since they got the gig?
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