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Post by Neshead on Jul 8, 2020 11:36:00 GMT
widthofapost.com/2020/06/19/why-we-love-bradford-city-1-valley-parade/#commentsShamelessly stolen from WOAP. About a dozen comments in reply to the OP, all pretty complimentary. What's people's views on here about the old place? I have mine, some good some bad, it's our historical home and I have good memories of the place. But is it the place to take Bradford City into the next 50 years or so? Some of the stands are up to useful life time where maintenance will start to dig deep and the area offers nothing in terms of match day experience. With the lease up for renewal in a few years it's big decision time that will impact on the next 30 or 40 years. Is Valley Parade really the place to take Bradford City in to the future?
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Post by Dick on Jul 8, 2020 11:48:53 GMT
Agree - some good, some bad, nice memories.. but...
Aside from VPs history, it's functionally alright, location is decent for most of the home fans to get to / drink around and isn't decrepit like some other grounds are are.
Bradford has changed so much over what I can remember (I'm late 30s) - most of it for the worst. VP is in danger of being stuck in the past, now on a downward spiral like so much of the areas in an around the city centre.
It's in a dense residential area but no-one there is interested in us - when you go to other grounds in the middle of terrace houses you do that get feeling you're a hostile invader. VP is in a shithole area I hate going into and is going to become even more third world over the next generation. If you want to encourage more non-match events, people are not going to want to go into the middle of Manningham for them.
People moan about modern bowl type stadiums, but honestly, a multi-purpose stadium (including the Bulls as well - both sides are shit and in the interests of both they need to swallow their pride and look at working together), that also has other functions that serve a match day and non-match day is the sort of thing we should be looking at. And I don't just mean a Nandos and Wetherspoons - things like offices, a hotel, corporate suites, exhibition hall, sports development centre... not literally those things but you get the picture. VP being used 23 times a year and for wedding receptions / 21st birthdays ain't gonna cut it.
I look back at VP fondly, but it will soon become a relic of the past. Unless we get a billionaire owner with money to piss away, when the lease comes up it will be the biggest factor in deciding our future this century, and I'll include the knock-on effect of the Bulls and other industries as well that would benefit.
Unfotunatley I don't see who could lead us / Bradford in general with that sort of vision, ambition and aspiration. One things you realise about supporting city over the decades is that they live day-to-day, a 'vision' isn't the sort of concept for us.
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Post by mikehunt on Jul 8, 2020 11:58:47 GMT
It might be a very different world post Covid that means we have to stay at VP, who knows.
I’d imagine Rhodes’ plan, it’s what I would do, would be to sign another lease or buy it back after putting pressure on Gibb for a significant rent reduction by threatening to go elsewhere, quite where is anybody’s guess because Odsal isn’t suitable and neither is Horsfall. Gibb doesn’t have an alternative tenant, Bulls and Avenue don’t want it and it’s not worth a lot demolished. They need each other really. I’m not a fan on the associate directors being enthusiastic amateurs helping the club but this probably is Roger Owen’s strong point.
A new ground would be out of town centre somewhere because I’d imagine you’d need a hotel, cinema, shopping complex and an exhibition hall to make it work financially. Rupp and Rhodes probably need to be well advanced with that by now I’d imagine for it to be a credible alternative.
Long term the future has to be either away from VP or in a substantially rebuilt stadium. The Bradford End isn’t really suitable and even the newest parts are 20 years old. Add in the stadium has been used for more than 20k probably half a dozen times since relegation and it makes sense to move or redevelop.
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Post by Lethal Jizzle on Jul 8, 2020 11:59:30 GMT
The ground is in the middle of a slum lopsided and a the corner with the tunnel is just an ugly disgrace. In all my years watching them I've seen maybe 20 games that give me good memories, good not amazing. I believe there would be many more people who like me wouldn't be bothered about moving if not for the fire. I think it plays on people's emotions and gives a misguided view on the ground.
On the plus side it was always a decent walk from the pub or home, and that is the only plus
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Post by Hoochy on Jul 8, 2020 12:41:01 GMT
It's high time we had this discussion as the lease is coming to an end. The problem here is the same for other immediate, medium or long term plans. We've got 2 men in charge who don't actually want to be here so they're not going to waste time or resources researching alternatives.
We're stuck like a broken record living season to season with no actual longer term aim other than, let's see if we can finish top 6/7 this season. It's shite.
You can take a few of the rumours and throw them together to come up with a couple of theories as to what might transpire. Rupp won't have a better time to get rid than when he has trousered all of the McBurnie money. Sure, he'll still make a bit of a loss but he's got enough to put that down to experience. If he stays after that it will only cost him more season by season so it's the sensible time to get rid. We know Julie loves a bargain so he might step in if the price is right but what then? He's a rich man to some degree but not in the echelons of the super rich that could finance us, a new stadium, a fast track to professionalism. You can only see it being the same old same old. Renew the lease on the stadium, live from season to season. Again, shite.
A bit of forward thinking is what's needed in conjunction with the Bulls, the council and other potential investors or businesses that could share a site but it's not going to happen because we have SR and JR there who don't want to be. We're in a rut with no logical way out and little chance of a dream ticket way out. It all seems a bit pointless and a waste that one of the biggest cities in the country that has a decent amount of fans interested in the match day experience is going to languish in L2 for eternity with the occasional season in L1 if we're lucky.
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Post by Lethal Jizzle on Jul 8, 2020 12:48:59 GMT
If you've been to the Ricoh arena you will see what is achievable in a shit area. It's a great modern stadium with many many other revenues. Get it somewhere near the euroway with good traffic management onto the m606 and it will attract away fans more and depending on the businesses you put there it will attract people from other West Yorkshire town's and cities
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Post by hobbes on Jul 8, 2020 12:57:15 GMT
I agree with Jizzle -the fire has kept us at VP longer than it should. I'm sure we've all got a strong emotional attachment whether you're old enough like some of us to have been there or not. But its coming to the end of its useful life for me.
We're not wanted by the local residents, and who can blame them? Any new ground should be somewhere accessible with less impact on local residents.
GR gave us the Midland Road and the kop but he should've stopped there. We can't develop it any further due to the topography and constraints of the site. Looking back I'm amazed we got planning permission for the kop the way it towers over Rock Terrace, but that was a political decision - the planners recommended refusal but GR drummed up a media storm and pressured the councillers into approving it at committee.
The Bradford End is embarrassing. If we were to stay that needs sorting - even if its by creating a covered concourse that can sell alcohol meaning its more likely to be used. The games against Sheff Utd etc when that end was full were the only ones in recent years that felt like "proper" games to me. Playing towards an empty stand is like so many of the khazi league grounds we have to visit.
My preference would be for a new ground, ideally on Valley Road on that area opposite McDonalds. A 20k stadium designed so that an increase in capacity is feasible without major demolition. Share it with the Bulls. Get a commercial partner like Tesco or Sainsburys, plus Holiday Inn or someone similar, incorporate that into the development. Will only happen with support from the Council, in terms of planning and economic development support. The council needs to realise the benefits to the city a new stadium would bring - The only positive news stories that ever come out of Bradford are the two biggest sports clubs. I'd accept a ground at Richard Dunns site if that wasn't possible. That has different pros and cons, but would still be better than ekeing out an existence at a crumbling VP in 20-30 years time.
Brentford have shown that you can build a new ground with character that isn't a "soulless bowl". The DW is shit, but Rotherham is decent. All it takes is a little flair and to not make the roof all one height. Not filling in all the corners also retains some of the character of a traditional ground, although I believe is more expensive.
Leeds Council Sport Development department operates (or used to) out of South Leeds Stadium. They have elite development officers for football and rugby. As far as I can remember, Bradford Sports Development is only interested in "community sports development".
We could build a decent training ground in any number of places such as Marley Stadium - loads of room there. Upgrade the astro pitch to the latest tech. Upgrade and enclose a couple of the grass pitches for the pro clubs. Build a changing room block with a dining room and some offices. Piece of piss.
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Post by Neshead on Jul 8, 2020 13:12:50 GMT
If you've been to the Ricoh arena you will see what is achievable in a shit area. It's a great modern stadium with many many other revenues. Get it somewhere near the euroway with good traffic management onto the m606 and it will attract away fans more and depending on the businesses you put there it will attract people from other West Yorkshire town's and cities Agree with the sentiment but the stadium is awful, terribly designed soulless bowl.
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Post by Lethal Jizzle on Jul 8, 2020 13:35:24 GMT
If you've been to the Ricoh arena you will see what is achievable in a shit area. It's a great modern stadium with many many other revenues. Get it somewhere near the euroway with good traffic management onto the m606 and it will attract away fans more and depending on the businesses you put there it will attract people from other West Yorkshire town's and cities Agree with the sentiment but the stadium is awful, terribly designed soulless bowl. I quite like it, few bits I'd change but it's very rare you get a new stadium above 20k that doesn't feel soulless, not been to mk but thats supposed to be decent too and from what I remember relatively cheap too
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Post by Neshead on Jul 8, 2020 14:07:36 GMT
Agree with the sentiment but the stadium is awful, terribly designed soulless bowl. I quite like it, few bits I'd change but it's very rare you get a new stadium above 20k that doesn't feel soulless, not been to mk but thats supposed to be decent too and from what I remember relatively cheap too Both MK and the Ricoh suffer from the same design flaws as the Emirates in that its the same all the way round. Wembley too to an extent. Differing to the uniqueness of say Anfield where they've kept the character of the ground and the new stand adds to it.
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Post by mikehunt on Jul 8, 2020 15:36:42 GMT
If you've been to the Ricoh arena you will see what is achievable in a shit area. It's a great modern stadium with many many other revenues. Get it somewhere near the euroway with good traffic management onto the m606 and it will attract away fans more and depending on the businesses you put there it will attract people from other West Yorkshire town's and cities As far as Cov goes it’s far from the worst area, nowhere near as bad as Manningham. The Ricoh is ok but it’s a pain in the arse location with no local free parking or it’s a bus from the city centre. Few local pubs and it’s too big for Wasps and Cov City. There’s rarely a good atmosphere there, even for a Union game v local neighbours Leicester. I think a lot of Cov fans would have preferred a redevelopment of Highfield Road.
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Post by BingomoanyBob on Jul 8, 2020 17:47:19 GMT
I agree with much of the above. The fire looms large over any decision and there will be strong opinions on both sides. Although present, I didn’t know anyone injured or killed, nor was I in the stand- therefore I don’t have a vested interest as far as that goes. My preference would be to move, but sadly it is a pipe dream, there’s no way the current owners would have the wherewithal, vision or ambition. The stadium acts as a perfect metaphor for the club, unsellable (not that we own it!), decaying and getting close to unfit for 21st century purpose. Outside of emotional reasons, the pros for staying: parking close isn’t too bad if you get there reasonably early, and as long as the mutants haven’t stoved in your windows during the game; there’s cheap city centre parking and it’s only 15 minutes or so from decent pubs and train and bus stations. I can’t think of many others.
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Post by bantam147 on Jul 8, 2020 17:57:35 GMT
Aside from the understandably sentimental ties as a result of the fire, it's a shit hole.
What I wouldnt give for the sort of reinvigorating that the likes of Cardiff, Swansea, even fucking Rotherham have had. New ground, new owner, bit of ambition. Until then, I'm done.
Billy fucking Clarke.
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Post by tetchyarse on Jul 8, 2020 19:47:38 GMT
There's nothing wrong with VP that some new seats (and not the cheap Chinese shit that Edin bought for the main stand, so narrow that an anorexic Hobbit would struggle to fit in them) and a lick of paint wouldn't solve. Locals never want the football ground, so what, it's a ten minute walk to the city centre. You won't get that at a soulless bowl. I used to live near Milton Keynes and went when we played there; their stadium is handy if you want an IKEA hotdog or a mooch round Asda, but fucking useless if you want a pre-match pint.
The problem at City is the attitude. My dad's work has an exec box and the staff got to go on a rota. The half time food is fucking pie and chips. Always the same pie and always the aame frozen chips, served out of a big tray like it's a shit hospital canteen. A VIP match experience it isn't. Move to a new ground and it'll still be pie and fucking chips.
There's no need to leave VP. It's a 23,000 seater stadium. It's relatively modern. It's in good nick. The Bradford End ideally needs replacing, but if not then meh. I'm not stupid enough to buy a seat on the bottom tier.
It comes down to Gibb. If he tries to stiff us on the lease again we should tell him to lump it and move to Odsal. It's a dump but we'd get it for buttons, the RFL are having to pay to maintain it after Northern moved to Dewsbury. They'd bite our bloody hands off.
What we need, what we really need, is a proper training ground. One where we don't have meals in a school canteen, and one that isn't three feet underwater for half the fucking season.
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Post by Hoochy on Jul 8, 2020 20:56:13 GMT
There's nothing wrong with VP that some new seats (and not the cheap Chinese shit that Edin bought for the main stand, so narrow that an anorexic Hobbit would struggle to fit in them) and a lick of paint wouldn't solve. Locals never want the football ground, so what, it's a ten minute walk to the city centre. You won't get that at a soulless bowl. I used to live near Milton Keynes and went when we played there; their stadium is handy if you want an IKEA hotdog or a mooch round Asda, but fucking useless if you want a pre-match pint. The problem at City is the attitude. My dad's work has an exec box and the staff got to go on a rota. The half time food is fucking pie and chips. Always the same pie and always the aame frozen chips, served out of a big tray like it's a shit hospital canteen. A VIP match experience it isn't. Move to a new ground and it'll still be pie and fucking chips. There's no need to leave VP. It's a 23,000 seater stadium. It's relatively modern. It's in good nick. The Bradford End ideally needs replacing, but if not then meh. I'm not stupid enough to buy a seat on the bottom tier. It comes down to Gibb. If he tries to stiff us on the lease again we should tell him to lump it and move to Odsal. It's a dump but we'd get it for buttons, the RFL are having to pay to maintain it after Northern moved to Dewsbury. They'd bite our bloody hands off. What we need, what we really need, is a proper training ground. One where we don't have meals in a school canteen, and one that isn't three feet underwater for half the fucking season. I get what your're saying about having a perfectly adequate stadium and I do flit between the idea of staying there and moving although it does seem that any idea of moving is moot at the moment anyway. My current thinking is that the positive benefits of a brand new complex outweighs the advantages of staying at VP. It makes a lot of sense and could be the catalyst to a resurgence for both clubs in the city.
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Post by tetchyarse on Jul 8, 2020 21:54:46 GMT
There's nothing wrong with VP that some new seats (and not the cheap Chinese shit that Edin bought for the main stand, so narrow that an anorexic Hobbit would struggle to fit in them) and a lick of paint wouldn't solve. Locals never want the football ground, so what, it's a ten minute walk to the city centre. You won't get that at a soulless bowl. I used to live near Milton Keynes and went when we played there; their stadium is handy if you want an IKEA hotdog or a mooch round Asda, but fucking useless if you want a pre-match pint. The problem at City is the attitude. My dad's work has an exec box and the staff got to go on a rota. The half time food is fucking pie and chips. Always the same pie and always the aame frozen chips, served out of a big tray like it's a shit hospital canteen. A VIP match experience it isn't. Move to a new ground and it'll still be pie and fucking chips. There's no need to leave VP. It's a 23,000 seater stadium. It's relatively modern. It's in good nick. The Bradford End ideally needs replacing, but if not then meh. I'm not stupid enough to buy a seat on the bottom tier. It comes down to Gibb. If he tries to stiff us on the lease again we should tell him to lump it and move to Odsal. It's a dump but we'd get it for buttons, the RFL are having to pay to maintain it after Northern moved to Dewsbury. They'd bite our bloody hands off. What we need, what we really need, is a proper training ground. One where we don't have meals in a school canteen, and one that isn't three feet underwater for half the fucking season. I get what your're saying about having a perfectly adequate stadium and I do flit between the idea of staying there and moving although it does seem that any idea of moving is moot at the moment anyway. My current thinking is that the positive benefits of a brand new complex outweighs the advantages of staying at VP. It makes a lot of sense and could be the catalyst to a resurgence for both clubs in the city. If we were playing in a shitheap like Millmoor it'd make sense to move. If Gibb tries to stiff us on the rent it'd make sense to move. Other than that, I'm not sure. I get the idea of a clean start. VP has felt more like a millstone recently, a huge Championship-quality ground playing host to Hope fucking Akpan. It feels unloved, faded seats that are 20 years old, there's no spark anymore. But there's nothing a new soulless bowl would give us that VP can't. If the club don't give a shit about VP they won't give a shit about a new ground.
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Post by Hoochy on Jul 8, 2020 22:19:52 GMT
The Pension Fund have us over a barrel, pants down, unless we get proactive. I think it's 7-8 years until the lease is up. That's probably just about enough time to secure a site, partners, investors, council, planning permission and the rest of it. The fact that we haven't started any of this yet means that it's hugely unlikely.
By the time the lease comes to renewal, Odsal could be a Tesco or something and we'll be stuck paying the Gibbs whatever they want for another 25 years whilst also taking care of the home improvements! They got the deal of the fucking century with that one. If we do want to stay at VP we need to be in a position to play hardball and buy it back for a ridiculously low fee or tell them to screw it and leave them with a useless bit of real estate that will cost an arm and a leg to dismantle before they can reuse or sell the site for something else.
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Post by hobbes on Jul 8, 2020 22:23:02 GMT
There's nothing wrong with VP that some new seats (and not the cheap Chinese shit that Edin bought for the main stand, so narrow that an anorexic Hobbit would struggle to fit in them) and a lick of paint wouldn't solve. Locals never want the football ground, so what, it's a ten minute walk to the city centre. You won't get that at a soulless bowl. I used to live near Milton Keynes and went when we played there; their stadium is handy if you want an IKEA hotdog or a mooch round Asda, but fucking useless if you want a pre-match pint. The problem at City is the attitude. My dad's work has an exec box and the staff got to go on a rota. The half time food is fucking pie and chips. Always the same pie and always the aame frozen chips, served out of a big tray like it's a shit hospital canteen. A VIP match experience it isn't. Move to a new ground and it'll still be pie and fucking chips. There's no need to leave VP. It's a 23,000 seater stadium. It's relatively modern. It's in good nick. The Bradford End ideally needs replacing, but if not then meh. I'm not stupid enough to buy a seat on the bottom tier. It comes down to Gibb. If he tries to stiff us on the lease again we should tell him to lump it and move to Odsal. It's a dump but we'd get it for buttons, the RFL are having to pay to maintain it after Northern moved to Dewsbury. They'd bite our bloody hands off. What we need, what we really need, is a proper training ground. One where we don't have meals in a school canteen, and one that isn't three feet underwater for half the fucking season. I get what your're saying about having a perfectly adequate stadium and I do flit between the idea of staying there and moving although it does seem that any idea of moving is moot at the moment anyway. My current thinking is that the positive benefits of a brand new complex outweighs the advantages of staying at VP. It makes a lot of sense and could be the catalyst to a resurgence for both clubs in the city. New ground, new era, new Bradford. Theres your fucking tagline Kirsten England.
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Post by tetchyarse on Jul 8, 2020 22:37:06 GMT
The Pension Fund have us over a barrel, pants down, unless we get proactive. I think it's 7-8 years until the lease is up. That's probably just about enough time to secure a site, partners, investors, council, planning permission and the rest of it. The fact that we haven't started any of this yet means that it's hugely unlikely. By the time the lease comes to renewal, Odsal could be a Tesco or something and we'll be stuck paying the Gibbs whatever they want for another 25 years whilst also taking care of the home improvements! They got the deal of the fucking century with that one. If we do want to stay at VP we need to be in a position to play hardball and buy it back for a ridiculously low fee or tell them to screw it and leave them with a useless bit of real estate that will cost an arm and a leg to dismantle before they can reuse or sell the site for something else. Yup. VP is worthless other than as a football ground. You won't be selling many luxury apartments in Manningham. Why we're not telling Gibb to fuck off is quite beyond me.
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Post by Hoochy on Jul 9, 2020 0:47:07 GMT
The Pension Fund have us over a barrel, pants down, unless we get proactive. I think it's 7-8 years until the lease is up. That's probably just about enough time to secure a site, partners, investors, council, planning permission and the rest of it. The fact that we haven't started any of this yet means that it's hugely unlikely. By the time the lease comes to renewal, Odsal could be a Tesco or something and we'll be stuck paying the Gibbs whatever they want for another 25 years whilst also taking care of the home improvements! They got the deal of the fucking century with that one. If we do want to stay at VP we need to be in a position to play hardball and buy it back for a ridiculously low fee or tell them to screw it and leave them with a useless bit of real estate that will cost an arm and a leg to dismantle before they can reuse or sell the site for something else. Yup. VP is worthless other than as a football ground. You won't be selling many luxury apartments in Manningham. Why we're not telling Gibb to fuck off is quite beyond me. We're legally bound into the lease agreement I presume. I remember Lawn making some noises about us taking our seats up to Odsal or some such bluster, clearly trying to rattle the Pension Fund into some sort of submission. Telling him to fuck off probably isn't quite as easy as we'd like it to be. Now fair's fair, by the end of the term the Pension Fund have made a very tidy profit out of the deal and that's what they're in the business of doing. We should be making some noise now about our intentions beyond the lease and giving them the time to come back to us with something. Ridiculous as it sounds, if we maintain a stance that we're not paying them another lease they might be forced to give us it for free because who wants a useless behemoth in their portfolio. Here's a stadium design that's proposed for Aberdeen. Snazzy webpage and everything. It's been shelved for the moment because of the virus they say but everyone's using that excuse. 20000 seats is adequate for us and the Bulls. Theirs is on the edge of town which I don't think would suit us or the council if they were to get in on it. We're trying to sell Bradford town as an event space with Centenary Square, Sunbridge Wells, Alhambra, whatever becomes of the Odeon. We've also got the bar scene that's sprung up on North parade side. There's Little Germany. All these places need visitors and footfall so attracting people to the centre is ideal to stimulate the economy with bars and restaurants that an event type place should have. A proper council should be investing in things like this.
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