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Post by Bacon on Aug 30, 2019 13:35:17 GMT
"Eeets all soooo quiiiiiiet, eeets all so steeel"
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Post by Hobhead on Aug 30, 2019 14:26:26 GMT
All arguments are treated in the same simple-minded, reductive way now: you’re either a baddie or a goodie. The whole Brexit debate was refreshing at first. Cross party alliances temporarily formed around a single issue. The ridiculous partisan nature of party politics where the content of a person’s words mattered less than the colour of his tie was briefly forgotten. It was energising. Slowly it went the same way as all debates do nowadays. It started with the idea that immigration was highest on the list of leavers’ concerns and from there we were just a short hop to the tried and tested racist/anti racist trope. Once there, that’s when all the weirdos come out. There still are some odd, odd alliances. You won't be surprised to note that I'm a keen admirer of Gorgeous George Galloway even though he's a meanie, nasty BREXITeer. Seeing him palling up with Farage makes me sick. Galloway won’t be swayed though as he’s a man of principle, and I say that as someone who isn’t overly keen on the fella. Most people have rolled over and joined the team they’ve been directed to. Most people don’t have Galloway’s stones. Just look at the stick the likes of Kate Hoey gets from leftists and Grieve from the right. It’s because they aren’t doing what they’re ‘supposed’ to according to the narrative now. Brexit should never be a left/right proposition. In Sweden they’re utterly bemused by the debate over here because over there being anti EU is generally considered an anti-capitalist hard left position. It used to largely be that way here too before we actually decided to leave.
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Post by rahicscissorbudget on Aug 30, 2019 16:21:00 GMT
There still are some odd, odd alliances. You won't be surprised to note that I'm a keen admirer of Gorgeous George Galloway even though he's a meanie, nasty BREXITeer. Seeing him palling up with Farage makes me sick. Galloway won’t be swayed though as he’s a man of principle, and I say that as someone who isn’t overly keen on the fella. Most people have rolled over and joined the team they’ve been directed to. Most people don’t have Galloway’s stones. Just look at the stick the likes of Kate Hoey gets from leftists and Grieve from the right. It’s because they aren’t doing what they’re ‘supposed’ to according to the narrative now. Brexit should never be a left/right proposition. In Sweden they’re utterly bemused by the debate over here because over there being anti EU is generally considered an anti-capitalist hard left position. It used to largely be that way here too before we actually decided to leave. This is a very good point actually. As somebody who’s not terribly fond of the old me me me way of organising things, I could probably get behind a Brexit where somebody was making that case. Trouble is we’ve got hedge fund runner Rees Mogg and former city trader Farage making it, and as a result I can’t see how it’s not for the rich and privileged. Somebody pointed out the potential biosecurity benefits to an island of Brexit to me the other day, and it’s literally the first time anybody has made a vaguely leftish point in favour of Brexit. Uk politics is a bit bollocks, isn’t it? I blame this FPTP thing.
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Post by Attentive Onlooker on Aug 30, 2019 17:36:05 GMT
There still are some odd, odd alliances. You won't be surprised to note that I'm a keen admirer of Gorgeous George Galloway even though he's a meanie, nasty BREXITeer. Seeing him palling up with Farage makes me sick. Galloway won’t be swayed though as he’s a man of principle, and I say that as someone who isn’t overly keen on the fella. Most people have rolled over and joined the team they’ve been directed to. Most people don’t have Galloway’s stones. Just look at the stick the likes of Kate Hoey gets from leftists and Grieve from the right. It’s because they aren’t doing what they’re ‘supposed’ to according to the narrative now. Brexit should never be a left/right proposition. In Sweden they’re utterly bemused by the debate over here because over there being anti EU is generally considered an anti-capitalist hard left position. It used to largely be that way here too before we actually decided to leave. It's because very early on Leave was painted as RAYCIST. One thing the left fear more than anything is being accused of racism. They've then had to engage in all sorts of mental gymnastics to make the case for Remain.
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Post by rahicscissorbudget on Aug 31, 2019 7:11:39 GMT
That response very much makes the assumption that there is any benefit to Brexit, which apart from biosecurity hasn’t been established.
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Post by Pyongyang Bantam on Sept 1, 2019 17:08:27 GMT
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Post by Hobhead on Sept 1, 2019 17:13:44 GMT
How do they conflate the first and third items on that poster with the second?
They always want the argument to be about race because it suits their monomania.
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Post by Pyongyang Bantam on Sept 1, 2019 18:01:22 GMT
How do they conflate the first and third items on that poster with the second? They always want the argument to be about race because it suits their monomania. Because voting leave automatically makes one a migrant hating Boris lover who didn’t know what they were voting for therefore their vote should be disregarded to ‘protect democracy’
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Post by Attentive Onlooker on Sept 2, 2019 7:22:36 GMT
How do they conflate the first and third items on that poster with the second? They always want the argument to be about race because it suits their monomania. Because they're "good" people. And "good" people are always on the side of the downtrodden and the underdog. People who are concerned about immigration are automatically bad because they don't care. This gives us the added benefit that we can call them racist because they must be. It's also a great smear tactic that will go down brilliantly with our, already converted, supporters.
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Post by rahicscissorbudget on Sept 2, 2019 10:01:07 GMT
How do they conflate the first and third items on that poster with the second? They always want the argument to be about race because it suits their monomania. Because voting leave automatically makes one a migrant hating Boris lover who didn’t know what they were voting for therefore their vote should be disregarded to ‘protect democracy’ Tbf, there’s no way anybody voting to leave could have known what they were voting for, not because they’re dumb but because it was an abstract concept that hadn’t been, and still hasn’t really, been defined in concrete terms.
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Post by Neshead on Sept 2, 2019 10:05:44 GMT
Because voting leave automatically makes one a migrant hating Boris lover who didn’t know what they were voting for therefore their vote should be disregarded to ‘protect democracy’ Tbf, there’s no way anybody voting to leave could have known what they were voting for, not because they’re dumb but because it was an abstract concept that hadn’t been, and still hasn’t really, been defined in concrete terms. I knew exactly what i was voting for, to leave the EU. How they do it and how deliberately difficult the EU and our politicians make it has no bearing on my decision.
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Post by rahicscissorbudget on Sept 2, 2019 10:17:04 GMT
Tbf, there’s no way anybody voting to leave could have known what they were voting for, not because they’re dumb but because it was an abstract concept that hadn’t been, and still hasn’t really, been defined in concrete terms. I knew exactly what i was voting for, to leave the EU. How they do it and how deliberately difficult the EU and our politicians make it has no bearing on my decision. So if it was leave like Switzerland or Norway that would be acceptable? Or leave on the same terms as Iran currently enjoys? Or if we retained all the obligations of membership, but had none of the benefits anymore? Or if England leaves, but none of the rest of the UK? Or if everybody has to sacrifice their first born? Even if it had no bearing on your decision, it’ll have a bearing on how and if the country works very well, and it’s a reasonable request to ask what’s gonna happen afterwards.
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Post by Neshead on Sept 2, 2019 10:55:48 GMT
I knew exactly what i was voting for, to leave the EU. How they do it and how deliberately difficult the EU and our politicians make it has no bearing on my decision. So if it was leave like Switzerland or Norway that would be acceptable? Or leave on the same terms as Iran currently enjoys? Or if we retained all the obligations of membership, but had none of the benefits anymore? Or if England leaves, but none of the rest of the UK? Or if everybody has to sacrifice their first born? Even if it had no bearing on your decision, it’ll have a bearing on how and if the country works very well, and it’s a reasonable request to ask what’s gonna happen afterwards. I care not one bit hows its done, not one. I care that the box i ticked on a ballot paper resulting in a majority vote for leave is acted. No point in asking me if i want it like this or like that, i'll leave that to the politicians to do the job they are well paid for.
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Post by rahicscissorbudget on Sept 2, 2019 11:11:09 GMT
So if it was leave like Switzerland or Norway that would be acceptable? Or leave on the same terms as Iran currently enjoys? Or if we retained all the obligations of membership, but had none of the benefits anymore? Or if England leaves, but none of the rest of the UK? Or if everybody has to sacrifice their first born? Even if it had no bearing on your decision, it’ll have a bearing on how and if the country works very well, and it’s a reasonable request to ask what’s gonna happen afterwards. I care not one bit hows its done, not one. I care that the box i ticked on a ballot paper resulting in a majority vote for leave is acted. No point in asking me if i want it like this or like that, i'll leave that to the politicians to do the job they are well paid for. So you’re saying “you lost, get over it”? Presumably at some point it will be legitimate for the slightly less than half of the country that voted to stay to raise their concerns? When will that be? Brexit plus two years? Plus five?
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Post by Neshead on Sept 2, 2019 11:40:17 GMT
I care not one bit hows its done, not one. I care that the box i ticked on a ballot paper resulting in a majority vote for leave is acted. No point in asking me if i want it like this or like that, i'll leave that to the politicians to do the job they are well paid for. So you’re saying “you lost, get over it”? Presumably at some point it will be legitimate for the slightly less than half of the country that voted to stay to raise their concerns? When will that be? Brexit plus two years? Plus five? Yeah thats pretty much how a majority vote works, its been used all over the world for centuries. Maybe if the remain supporters had been so vociferous in the years building up to the vote all of this would now be dead in the water. There's alway going to be people disappointed in a voting system, just happens to be the likes of you. Difference being with me, if the vote had gone the other way i would have accepted that as the democratic vote of the people of the UK. Shame it can't be said of people of the other side of the vote...
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Post by rahicscissorbudget on Sept 2, 2019 11:49:52 GMT
So you’re saying “you lost, get over it”? Presumably at some point it will be legitimate for the slightly less than half of the country that voted to stay to raise their concerns? When will that be? Brexit plus two years? Plus five? Yeah thats pretty much how a majority vote works, its been used all over the world for centuries. Maybe if the remain supporters had been so vociferous in the years building up to the vote all of this would now be dead in the water. There's alway going to be people disappointed in a voting system, just happens to be the likes of you. Difference being with me, if the vote had gone the other way i would have accepted that as the democratic vote of the people of the UK. Shame it can't be said of people of the other side of the vote... You might have, but your man Nigel wouldn’t. He specifically said that if it was 48-52 it wouldn’t be over ‘by a long chalk’. I don’t see any problem with arguing for remain after the vote, or considering it not over ‘by a long chalk’. It’s three years since the vote, and there’ll be another two if there’s a deal and a transition period. That’s a parliamentary term, which is the mandated period that as a country we’ve decide people take to change their mind. I don’t see any problem with checking, and if people still wanted to leave fine, crack on. I’d still think it was ill considered though and I’d still feel absolutely comfortable pointing out any logical inconsistencies. If that’s how majority votes work, how come we had to have this referendum anyway? We decided in 1975 or whenever it was.
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Post by Bacon on Sept 2, 2019 11:51:08 GMT
So you’re saying “you lost, get over it”? Presumably at some point it will be legitimate for the slightly less than half of the country that voted to stay to raise their concerns? When will that be? Brexit plus two years? Plus five? Yeah thats pretty much how a majority vote works, its been used all over the world for centuries. Maybe if the remain supporters had been so vociferous in the years building up to the vote all of this would now be dead in the water. There's alway going to be people disappointed in a voting system, just happens to be the likes of you. Difference being with me, if the vote had gone the other way i would have accepted that as the democratic vote of the people of the UK. Shame it can't be said of people of the other side of the vote... Big of you to not to kick up a stink if we'd continue with the Status Quo rather than taking a no look leap in the unknown fucking abyss. You're a fucking gent.
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Post by Neshead on Sept 2, 2019 11:53:08 GMT
Yeah thats pretty much how a majority vote works, its been used all over the world for centuries. Maybe if the remain supporters had been so vociferous in the years building up to the vote all of this would now be dead in the water. There's alway going to be people disappointed in a voting system, just happens to be the likes of you. Difference being with me, if the vote had gone the other way i would have accepted that as the democratic vote of the people of the UK. Shame it can't be said of people of the other side of the vote... Big of you to not to kick up a stink if we'd continue with the Status Quo rather than taking a no look leap in the unknown fucking abyss. You're a fucking gent. Its in my DNA m8, holding the door open for wheelchairs, doffing my imaginary cap to rich people, bit like Jesus.
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Post by Bacon on Sept 2, 2019 12:05:08 GMT
Big of you to not to kick up a stink if we'd continue with the Status Quo rather than taking a no look leap in the unknown fucking abyss. You're a fucking gent. Its in my DNA m8, holding the door open for wheelchairs, doffing my imaginary cap to rich people, bit like Jesus. Good old British values, makes you feel proud etc. etc. etc.
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Post by rahicscissorbudget on Sept 2, 2019 12:08:08 GMT
No point in asking me if i want it like this or like that, i'll leave that to the politicians to do the job they are well paid for. So yr against closing parliament to push through sumat politicians are against?
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